Discussion:
Hollinger - Will Chris Paul one day rival Magic Johnson in the pantheon of great point guards?
(too old to reply)
Alson Wong
2009-03-11 22:25:19 UTC
Permalink
Tuesday, March 10, 2009
PER Diem: March 11, 2009

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By John Hollinger
ESPN.com


We love to celebrate little guys in this game, and in particular, pure
point guards who make the guys around them look so good.

So it's weird to me to see that we probably have the best player ever
of his kind playing right now … and yet he's weirdly gone unheralded.
We couldn't wait to throw MVPs at Nash and Iverson and darn near gave
one to Jason Kidd, too. But Chris Paul? Somehow, it doesn't seem
everyone is totally on board with him.

To an extent, it's understandable. He hasn't played in June yet, he's
in a small market and his game, in many ways, isn't as spectacular as
the highlight Holy Trinity of LeBron, Kobe and Wade.

So once again, I feel a certain responsibility to remind everyone of
just how good Chris Paul has been these past two years, and how
unprecedented it is for a point guard to dominate the game on this
level.

It's worth noting, for instance, that Paul is about to set the mark
for the best PER ever by a player at this position since the ABA-NBA
merger … and that he's breaking the mark set by none other than Chris
Paul, in 2007-08.

Yes, it's easier for a small guard to dominate today's game than it
was for John Stockton and Isiah Thomas to dominate in the '80s, and
it's true that we don't know if Paul will have the longevity that the
players above enjoyed.

Nonetheless, compare Paul's first four seasons to any point guard from
the post-merger era, and one conclusion becomes evident really fast --
the only player who can even plausibly compare to him is Magic.

This year, CP has been better than ever. Despite earning hardly a
whisper in this year's MVP discussions after coming in second a year
ago, Paul is actually having a better season on several fronts.

"I'm a little surprised by it as well," said Hornets coach Byron
Scott. "I would think Chris would be in the conversation somewhere
because of the way he's played all season long, with the injuries
we've had, and to be where we are right now is pretty remarkable."

Top PG PERs since ABA-NBA merger
Without an all-star supporting cast, Chris Paul is on pace to break
his own record for the highest PER among point guards.

Player Season PER
Chris Paul 2008-09 29.1
Chris Paul 2007-08 28.4
Magic Johnson 1986-87 27.0
Magic Johnson 1988-89 26.9
Magic Johnson 1989-90 26.6


Where they are is only a couple of games back of where they were a
year ago, even with center Tyson Chandler missing 22 games and
struggling when he's taken the court, wings Peja Stojakovic and Morris
Peterson dealing with injury problems of their own and a bench
comprised of a role call of other teams' castaways.

Monday's loss in Atlanta was a good example. Paul hardly had his best
game -- he finished with 24 points and 10 assists, but shot 8-of-19
and committed six turnovers -- yet what stood out more was the glaring
absence of any help. New Orleans got seven points from its bench and
two from Chandler in an 89-79 loss.

But they're still on pace to win 51 games, and the reason they're
hanging in the race has been Paul. He's looking to lead the league in
steals and assists for a second straight season, and ranks a close
third behind James (31.29) and Wade (30.51) in the PER race after
finishing second behind James a season ago.

Which takes us back to the historical comparisons. Paul already is on
a trajectory that would stamp him the best player under 6-foot-4 in
league history -- if he comes anywhere close to matching his career
numbers for a few more seasons, Stockton's longevity would be the only
counterargument left -- which I alluded to more than a year ago.

But with this year's performance, we're left to consider even loftier
heights -- like whether he can rival Magic in the pantheon of great
point guards.

And despite their obvious differences -- Magic was 6-9 yet the most
dangerous open-court player in league history, while Paul is barely
six feet yet may be the best half-court pick-and-roll player in eons
-- Scott says he sees more than few similarities between his current
point guard and his former Showtime backcourt mate.

"The obvious difference is the height," said Scott, "but they are so
much alike in so many ways.

"Number one, both of them were extremely competitive, neither one
could stand to lose. Both of them were the most giving guys I've ever
seen on the basketball court; that was their whole thing was being a
true point guard. They look for their teammates first, [especially]
the first two quarters.

"Chris has taken a page out of Magic's book, as far as most of the
time in the second half I tell him, 'You have to be more aggressive.'
Earvin was great at that, getting everybody involved in the first half
and then being a little more aggressive in the second half and trying
to take over, and Chris is starting to do that."

Of course, there's one huge difference between Magic and Paul, and
it's something that may be tough to rectify as long as he's in New
Orleans -- Magic won five championships, while Paul's team hasn't gone
beyond the second round of the playoffs.

There are good reasons for this -- Magic not only had Scott as a
teammate, but also Hall of Famers Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy
and Bob McAdoo. Although Paul has two teammates who have made the All-
Star team (David West and Peja Stojakovic), his cohorts pale by
comparison.

As a result, Paul may stay a cult hero for a while longer. Yes, he
gets a few scraps of national TV exposure and the occasional
endorsement, but he remains mostly a "League Pass" legend known best
to TiVo junkies and his small band of admirers on the Bayou.

Thus, I must implore you again -- watch this guy, and appreciate him
while he's in his prime. Those in the know are seeing the best point
guard since Magic Johnson, and arguably the best little man of all
time … and the lack of attention to his exploits continues to bewilder
me.

John Hollinger writes for ESPN Insider. To e-mail him, click here.
Swillabrew
2009-03-11 22:44:49 UTC
Permalink
No.

Go Blazers !
bozak
2009-03-12 01:57:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Swillabrew
No.
Go Blazers !
5 championships, the one in your first year you play every position in the final game of
the finals when your big man is injured and do major damage...

i take magic over jordan any day of the week... he could do it all... and that aint just talk...
stringfellow
2009-03-12 03:50:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by bozak
Post by Swillabrew
No.
Go Blazers !
5 championships, the one in your first year you play every position in the final game of
the finals when your big man is injured and do major damage...
This is why Magic still gets the nod. Magic can duplicate pretty much
any feat in Chris Paul's repertoire, but I don't think Paul could do
the same. Magic could play (and even dominate) five positions; Paul's
a great backcourt player, but there's no way he's jumping center or
sliding over to power forward.
Post by bozak
i take magic over jordan any day of the week... he could do it all... and that aint just talk...
So would I. All else being equal, if I had to win an NBA Championship
to save my life, I'd want Magic on my team more than I'd want Michael
Jordan.

That said, there was one aspect of Magic's game that was not as
remarkable as everything else he did on the court: man-to-man
defense. Magic was never more than an adequate defender. It was the
only aspect of his game that was less than stellar.
Alson Wong
2009-03-12 05:31:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by stringfellow
That said, there was one aspect of Magic's game that was not as
remarkable as everything else he did on the court: man-to-man
defense. Magic was never more than an adequate defender. It was the
only aspect of his game that was less than stellar.
Kareem, after he retired, was asked to compare Magic and Oscar Robertson,
and said that Oscar was better overall because he was a better outside
shooter and defender.
m***@gmail.com
2009-03-12 02:27:20 UTC
Permalink
Only in Statworld.
Donkeydode
2009-03-12 04:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Only in Statworld.
bingo
z***@yahoo.com
2009-03-12 04:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Can't believe they're even doing this. Magic is in a class by himself
and will be for a long time!!
k***@gmail.com
2009-03-12 03:15:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alson Wong
Tuesday, March 10, 2009
PER Diem: March 11, 2009
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
By John Hollinger
ESPN.com
We love to celebrate little guys in this game, and in particular, pure
point guards who make the guys around them look so good.
So it's weird to me to see that we probably have the best player ever
of his kind playing right now … and yet he's weirdly gone unheralded.
We couldn't wait to throw MVPs at Nash and Iverson and darn near gave
one to Jason Kidd, too. But Chris Paul? Somehow, it doesn't seem
everyone is totally on board with him.
To an extent, it's understandable. He hasn't played in June yet, he's
in a small market and his game, in many ways, isn't as spectacular as
the highlight Holy Trinity of LeBron, Kobe and Wade.
So once again, I feel a certain responsibility to remind everyone of
just how good Chris Paul has been these past two years, and how
unprecedented it is for a point guard to dominate the game on this
level.
It's worth noting, for instance, that Paul is about to set the mark
for the best PER ever by a player at this position since the ABA-NBA
merger … and that he's breaking the mark set by none other than Chris
Paul, in 2007-08.
Yes, it's easier for a small guard to dominate today's game than it
was for John Stockton and Isiah Thomas to dominate in the '80s, and
it's true that we don't know if Paul will have the longevity that the
players above enjoyed.
Nonetheless, compare Paul's first four seasons to any point guard from
the post-merger era, and one conclusion becomes evident really fast --
the only player who can even plausibly compare to him is Magic.
This year, CP has been better than ever. Despite earning hardly a
whisper in this year's MVP discussions after coming in second a year
ago, Paul is actually having a better season on several fronts.
"I'm a little surprised by it as well," said Hornets coach Byron
Scott. "I would think Chris would be in the conversation somewhere
because of the way he's played all season long, with the injuries
we've had, and to be where we are right now is pretty remarkable."
Top PG PERs since ABA-NBA merger
 Without an all-star supporting cast, Chris Paul is on pace to break
his own record for the highest PER among point guards.
Player Season PER
Chris Paul 2008-09 29.1
Chris Paul 2007-08 28.4
Magic Johnson 1986-87 27.0
Magic Johnson 1988-89 26.9
Magic Johnson 1989-90 26.6
Where they are is only a couple of games back of where they were a
year ago, even with center Tyson Chandler missing 22 games and
struggling when he's taken the court, wings Peja Stojakovic and Morris
Peterson dealing with injury problems of their own and a bench
comprised of a role call of other teams' castaways.
Monday's loss in Atlanta was a good example. Paul hardly had his best
game -- he finished with 24 points and 10 assists, but shot 8-of-19
and committed six turnovers -- yet what stood out more was the glaring
absence of any help. New Orleans got seven points from its bench and
two from Chandler in an 89-79 loss.
But they're still on pace to win 51 games, and the reason they're
hanging in the race has been Paul. He's looking to lead the league in
steals and assists for a second straight season, and ranks a close
third behind James (31.29) and Wade (30.51) in the PER race after
finishing second behind James a season ago.
Which takes us back to the historical comparisons. Paul already is on
a trajectory that would stamp him the best player under 6-foot-4 in
league history -- if he comes anywhere close to matching his career
numbers for a few more seasons, Stockton's longevity would be the only
counterargument left -- which I alluded to more than a year ago.
But with this year's performance, we're left to consider even loftier
heights -- like whether he can rival Magic in the pantheon of great
point guards.
And despite their obvious differences -- Magic was 6-9 yet the most
dangerous open-court player in league history, while Paul is barely
six feet yet may be the best half-court pick-and-roll player in eons
-- Scott says he sees more than few similarities between his current
point guard and his former Showtime backcourt mate.
"The obvious difference is the height," said Scott, "but they are so
much alike in so many ways.
"Number one, both of them were extremely competitive, neither one
could stand to lose. Both of them were the most giving guys I've ever
seen on the basketball court; that was their whole thing was being a
true point guard. They look for their teammates first, [especially]
the first two quarters.
"Chris has taken a page out of Magic's book, as far as most of the
time in the second half I tell him, 'You have to be more aggressive.'
Earvin was great at that, getting everybody involved in the first half
and then being a little more aggressive in the second half and trying
to take over, and Chris is starting to do that."
Of course, there's one huge difference between Magic and Paul, and
it's something that may be tough to rectify as long as he's in New
Orleans -- Magic won five championships, while Paul's team hasn't gone
beyond the second round of the playoffs.
There are good reasons for this -- Magic not only had Scott as a
teammate, but also Hall of Famers Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy
and Bob McAdoo. Although Paul has two teammates who have made the All-
Star team (David West and Peja Stojakovic), his cohorts pale by
comparison.
As a result, Paul may stay a cult hero for a while longer. Yes, he
gets a few scraps of national TV exposure and the occasional
endorsement, but he remains mostly a "League Pass" legend known best
to TiVo junkies and his small band of admirers on the Bayou.
Thus, I must implore you again -- watch this guy, and appreciate him
while he's in his prime. Those in the know are seeing the best point
guard since Magic Johnson, and arguably the best little man of all
time … and the lack of attention to his exploits continues to bewilder
me.
John Hollinger writes for ESPN Insider. To e-mail him, click here.
No.
Old_Golden_Throat
2009-03-12 06:40:43 UTC
Permalink
This is their way of getting attention (clicks/revenue). On the most
part, it works.

C3P0 continues to amaze, but geez. Why can't the comparisons begin a
bit lower on the totem pole? He has quite a ways to go to even match
Isiah Thomas. Paul is already better than Kidd ever was, however.
Gary Collard
2009-03-12 17:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old_Golden_Throat
This is their way of getting attention (clicks/revenue). On the most
part, it works.
C3P0 continues to amaze, but geez. Why can't the comparisons begin a
bit lower on the totem pole? He has quite a ways to go to even match
Isiah Thomas.
He's so much better right now than Isiah ever was...and I'll bet a
better GM too :)

I don't know whether Paul will reach or pass Magic's career, time will
tell, he is certainly as good right now as Magic ever was but all time
greatness is about staying mower too. As others have pointed out,
Magic's versatility adds a dimension as well, Paul could also end up a
greater PG but not as great of a player.

Just enjoy the ride, we have some of the very best players in the
history of basketball playing right now, these are the golden days of
the NBA.
--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard at yahoo dot com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

“The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of
other people’s money” -- Margaret Thatcher
Old_Golden_Throat
2009-03-12 19:15:14 UTC
Permalink
"He's so much better right now than Isiah ever was"...

I'd probably agree Paul is better.

"and I'll bet a better GM too :) "

Somehow Thomas' failures as GM has downgraded his playing career.
While I realize you are joking, others might unfairly bring irrelevant
facts into the evaluation. Clearly his reputation has taken a big
hit, considering his GM stint is even mentioned.

Greatness is an evaluation of someone's body of work. Statements like
"A is better than B was" work well for current players because,
obviously, we get to see them doing their thing. But once they leave,
it's likely forgotten unless he has actual achievements backing him up
(i.e. championships). A good example is Bernard King, who I consider
one of the all-time best scorers. At his peak, he was incredible - as
unstoppable a force as any. Another: Rolando Blackman is every bit as
good as Rip Hamilton. But unfortunately, King and Blackman are
basically just footnotes in a historic sense. Those who watched them
play will share stories, but that's as far as it goes.

Paul has many years ahead of him, so who knows what he'll achieve.
Remember similar things were said about Ewing in his early years.
While he's loved in NY, remembered due to where he played, how do
people ultimately remember him? Seriously, he barely gets mentioned.
He's well behind Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, TD, Dream, etc. He
battles D-Rob for 7th, and D-Rob will likely get the nod from most
(fair or not).

Magic is generally regarded #1 PG. Because Paul is playing now at a
high level, he'll compare favorably. They want to promote today's
stars, rightfully so. If he does end up near Magic, that'd be great
because we will have witnessed some unworldly level of play from him.
But that is earned over time, with some actual achievements.
stringfellow
2009-03-12 19:23:14 UTC
Permalink
Magic is generally regarded #1 PG.  Because Paul is playing now at a
high level, he'll compare favorably.  They want to promote today's
stars, rightfully so.  If he does end up near Magic, that'd be great
because we will have witnessed some unworldly level of play from him.
But that is earned over time, with some actual achievements.
You're right about this. In the late 1980s/early 1990s, the press was
saying similar things about Kevin Johnson and Tim Hardaway to what
they're saying about Chris Paul now...and comparing them favorably to
Magic. Both KJ and T. Hardaway had pretty decent NBA careers, but
nobody seriously compares them to Magic anymore (no titles, no MVPs,
etc.).
Avant Grape
2009-03-12 19:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by stringfellow
Post by Old_Golden_Throat
Magic is generally regarded #1 PG. Because Paul is playing now at a
high level, he'll compare favorably. They want to promote today's
stars, rightfully so. If he does end up near Magic, that'd be great
because we will have witnessed some unworldly level of play from him.
But that is earned over time, with some actual achievements.
You're right about this. In the late 1980s/early 1990s, the press was
saying similar things about Kevin Johnson and Tim Hardaway to what
they're saying about Chris Paul now...and comparing them favorably to
Magic. Both KJ and T. Hardaway had pretty decent NBA careers, but
nobody seriously compares them to Magic anymore (no titles, no MVPs,
etc.).
Yet, I'd argue that both of them were better than Steve Nash, who won
two MVP's. Go figure.

BTW, KJ was just plain sick back in the day.

-JC
stringfellow
2009-03-12 19:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Avant Grape
Post by stringfellow
Magic is generally regarded #1 PG.  Because Paul is playing now at a
high level, he'll compare favorably.  They want to promote today's
stars, rightfully so.  If he does end up near Magic, that'd be great
because we will have witnessed some unworldly level of play from him.
But that is earned over time, with some actual achievements.
You're right about this. In the late 1980s/early 1990s, the press was
saying similar things about Kevin Johnson and Tim Hardaway to what
they're saying about Chris Paul now...and comparing them favorably to
Magic.  Both KJ and T. Hardaway had pretty decent NBA careers, but
nobody seriously compares them to Magic anymore (no titles, no MVPs,
etc.).
Yet, I'd argue that both of them were better than Steve Nash, who won
two MVP's.  Go figure.
Yeah, I'd agree with this.

The early 1990s (pre-1991) was sort of a Golden Age for the point
guard in the NBA. Look at who was active during that period: Magic
(before '91), Isiah, Stockton, T. Hardaway, KJ, Payton.
Alson Wong
2009-03-12 23:39:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old_Golden_Throat
Paul has many years ahead of him, so who knows what he'll achieve.
Remember similar things were said about Ewing in his early years.
While he's loved in NY, remembered due to where he played, how do
people ultimately remember him? Seriously, he barely gets mentioned.
He's well behind Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, TD, Dream, etc. He
battles D-Rob for 7th, and D-Rob will likely get the nod from most
(fair or not).
I'd rate Moses Malone ahead of both Robinson and Ewing.
Old_Golden_Throat
2009-03-13 00:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Good catch. For some reason, I tend to forget Moses.

This pushes Ewing even further from early projections that he's finish
near the top of the greatness chart. As it stands, he's clinging to
top 10.
Gary Collard
2009-03-15 17:53:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old_Golden_Throat
Good catch. For some reason, I tend to forget Moses.
This pushes Ewing even further from early projections that he's finish
near the top of the greatness chart. As it stands, he's clinging to
top 10.
Although top 10 center is pretty close to top 20 player overall, it
should be noted.
--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard at yahoo dot com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

“The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of
other people’s money” -- Margaret Thatcher
Avant Grape
2009-03-13 02:00:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alson Wong
Post by Old_Golden_Throat
Paul has many years ahead of him, so who knows what he'll achieve.
Remember similar things were said about Ewing in his early years.
While he's loved in NY, remembered due to where he played, how do
people ultimately remember him? Seriously, he barely gets mentioned.
He's well behind Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, TD, Dream, etc. He
battles D-Rob for 7th, and D-Rob will likely get the nod from most
(fair or not).
I'd rate Moses Malone ahead of both Robinson and Ewing.
Cosign.


-JC
Gary Collard
2009-03-15 17:52:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alson Wong
Post by Old_Golden_Throat
Paul has many years ahead of him, so who knows what he'll achieve.
Remember similar things were said about Ewing in his early years.
While he's loved in NY, remembered due to where he played, how do
people ultimately remember him? Seriously, he barely gets mentioned.
He's well behind Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, TD, Dream, etc. He
battles D-Rob for 7th, and D-Rob will likely get the nod from most
(fair or not).
I'd rate Moses Malone ahead of both Robinson and Ewing.
I think I'd rate Robinson ahead of Moses, and about equal to Hakeen, but
agree on Ewing - he's a second tier great (as is Moses I suppose) and
behind Moses.
--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard at yahoo dot com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

“The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of
other people’s money” -- Margaret Thatcher
Gary Collard
2009-03-15 17:50:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old_Golden_Throat
"He's so much better right now than Isiah ever was"...
I'd probably agree Paul is better.
"and I'll bet a better GM too :) "
Somehow Thomas' failures as GM has downgraded his playing career.
While I realize you are joking, others might unfairly bring irrelevant
facts into the evaluation. Clearly his reputation has taken a big
hit, considering his GM stint is even mentioned.
Greatness is an evaluation of someone's body of work. Statements like
"A is better than B was" work well for current players because,
obviously, we get to see them doing their thing. But once they leave,
it's likely forgotten unless he has actual achievements backing him up
(i.e. championships).
Indeed, that is what Isiah has...the two championships. It is why he is
severely overrated, I suppose, Dumars was really a better player on that
Detroit team and Isiah was only really a top 10 player in the league for
about 3 years (84-86), along with above average/minor star for a bunch
of others.

Kevin Johnson was a superior player to Isiah, and he's not in the class
of Paul or Magic. Mark Price looks superior to Isiah in a quick
comparison, I'd want to look a little deeper but certainly they are very
close whoever was better.

The thin is, Isiah was not in any way, shape or form an all time great,
and Paul will be even if his career drops off some from here and ends in
his early 30's. His first two seasons are as good as Isiah's peak, and
his last two are so far above anything that Isiah ever did as to make
the comparison look silly.
Post by Old_Golden_Throat
Magic is generally regarded #1 PG. Because Paul is playing now at a
high level, he'll compare favorably. They want to promote today's
stars, rightfully so. If he does end up near Magic, that'd be great
because we will have witnessed some unworldly level of play from him.
But that is earned over time, with some actual achievements.
I agree with this, indeed it's about what I said, test of time and all.
But let's not pretend that Isiah was ever, on his best day, near the
same league as Paul is right now (except for it being the NBA :)
--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard at yahoo dot com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

“The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of
other people’s money” -- Margaret Thatcher
Avant Grape
2009-03-12 19:44:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Collard
Post by Old_Golden_Throat
This is their way of getting attention (clicks/revenue). On the most
part, it works.
C3P0 continues to amaze, but geez. Why can't the comparisons begin a
bit lower on the totem pole? He has quite a ways to go to even match
Isiah Thomas.
He's so much better right now than Isiah ever was...
Not quite. Isiah in his first 4 seasons averaged more ppg, and apg.
Moreover, his rebound and steals are in the same range. Paul is damn
good, but there's no concrete evidence which make any case at all that
Paul is "so much better right now than Isiah ever was." Beyond that,
Isiah's championship rings speak for themselves. The guy was a true
money player and one of the best I've ever seen at his position.

-JC
stringfellow
2009-03-12 19:49:47 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 12, 12:44 pm, Avant Grape <***@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Isiah ever was...
Not quite.  Isiah in his first 4 seasons averaged more ppg, and apg.
Moreover, his rebound and steals are in the same range.  Paul is damn
good, but there's no concrete evidence which make any case at all that
Paul is "so much better right now than Isiah ever was."  
Indeed. Isiah had some feats in those late 80s playoff series
(especially in the Finals against the Lakers) that are the stuff of
legend, and yet to be matched by Paul.
Gary Collard
2009-03-15 17:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Collard
Isiah ever was...
Post by Avant Grape
Not quite. Isiah in his first 4 seasons averaged more ppg, and apg.
Moreover, his rebound and steals are in the same range. Paul is damn
good, but there's no concrete evidence which make any case at all that
Paul is "so much better right now than Isiah ever was."
Indeed. Isiah had some feats in those late 80s playoff series
(especially in the Finals against the Lakers) that are the stuff of
legend, and yet to be matched by Paul.
Agreed, playoffs are why he's in the HOF despite an otherwise unworthy
career.
--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard at yahoo dot com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

“The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of
other people’s money” -- Margaret Thatcher
Old_Golden_Throat
2009-03-12 20:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Based on PER, the comparison tilts towards Paul. Paul is a slightly
better thief, shoots a higher pct, turns the ball over less.

Paul probably has the better roster around him than Thomas did.
stringfellow
2009-03-12 20:06:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old_Golden_Throat
Paul probably has the better roster around him than Thomas did.
Are you sure about that? Dumars/Laimbeer/Rodman/Aguirre seems like a
better lineup than Paul has on the Hornets.
Old_Golden_Throat
2009-03-12 20:15:01 UTC
Permalink
I meant at the same point in their careers. Arguably, Chris Paul has
had more to work with than Isiah did in the early 80s. Then again,
maybe they just weren't household names or time has a way of making
people forget Tripucka or John Long. One day, we might forget David
West just as easily.
Swillabrew
2009-03-12 21:17:10 UTC
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Post by Old_Golden_Throat
I meant at the same point in their careers. Arguably, Chris Paul has
had more to work with than Isiah did in the early 80s. Then again,
maybe they just weren't household names or time has a way of making
people forget Tripucka or John Long. One day, we might forget David
West just as easily.
Don't forget the Microwave.

Go Blazers !
Avant Grape
2009-03-12 21:27:03 UTC
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Post by Old_Golden_Throat
I meant at the same point in their careers. Arguably, Chris Paul has
had more to work with than Isiah did in the early 80s. Then again,
maybe they just weren't household names or time has a way of making
people forget Tripucka or John Long. One day, we might forget David
West just as easily.
Maybe so, but West is better than Tripucka and Long were combined.

-JC
Gary Collard
2009-03-15 17:56:03 UTC
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Post by Old_Golden_Throat
I meant at the same point in their careers. Arguably, Chris Paul has
had more to work with than Isiah did in the early 80s. Then again,
maybe they just weren't household names or time has a way of making
people forget Tripucka or John Long.
Pretty similar really, one kind of star for each, a couple of role
players, but not much depth.
--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard at yahoo dot com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

“The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of
other people’s money” -- Margaret Thatcher
Avant Grape
2009-03-12 21:26:05 UTC
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Post by stringfellow
Post by Old_Golden_Throat
Paul probably has the better roster around him than Thomas did.
Are you sure about that? Dumars/Laimbeer/Rodman/Aguirre seems like a
better lineup than Paul has on the Hornets.
We're talking about his early career. Think Kelly Tri'puke'a.

-JC
Avant Grape
2009-03-12 21:25:03 UTC
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Post by Old_Golden_Throat
Based on PER, the comparison tilts towards Paul. Paul is a slightly
better thief, shoots a higher pct, turns the ball over less.
Paul probably has the better roster around him than Thomas did.
That's true. But I'm not all that high on using the PER to compare eras
with. Paul is phenomenal; he's one of my favorite players in the NBA
right now. But he hasn't reached the heights of Isiah just yet. People
tend to forget just how great this little guy was. Maybe he's not the
most likable guy, but he sure was a sight to behold on a basketball court.

-JC
Old_Golden_Throat
2009-03-13 00:43:33 UTC
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No doubt Paul has yet to reach Isiah's level of greatness and
achievements. But when measuring skill sets, like that ASG contest
does, it's pretty close. Both are fabulous ball handlers, can score
in traffic. Isiah could really use the glass to finish, while Paul is
real good at throwing those lob passes on those screen/rolls. Both
are equal in FT shooting competence. See, these types of measurements
are used to determine who's "better". It's quite close. Who's
"greater" is a different thing, with Isiah clearly ahead. Seems like
hair splitting, I know.

Example: Paul can suffer a C.E.I. and still be considered better than
Bob Cousy because he's much more talented, athletic, gifted, skilled,
etc. But he can't be considered greater, as his body of work, career
achievements, legacy, etc, don't match up yet.
Gary Collard
2009-03-15 17:54:51 UTC
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Post by Old_Golden_Throat
Paul probably has the better roster around him than Thomas did.
Smiley missing or typo?
--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard at yahoo dot com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

“The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of
other people’s money” -- Margaret Thatcher
Jeff Mayner
2009-03-12 07:59:17 UTC
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"Alson Wong" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:e1c0f1a8-cb59-450c-8222-***@a5g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Tuesday, March 10, 2009
PER Diem: March 11, 2009

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Only if he gets traded to, or comes as a free agent to:

The Lakers! ;-)
Gary Collard
2009-03-12 17:52:36 UTC
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Post by Alson Wong
Tuesday, March 10, 2009
PER Diem: March 11, 2009
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Lakers! ;-)
Winner!
--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard at yahoo dot com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

“The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of
other people’s money” -- Margaret Thatcher
Aluckyguess
2009-03-12 01:36:18 UTC
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NO one ever will. He was magic.
"Alson Wong" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:e1c0f1a8-cb59-450c-8222-***@a5g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Tuesday, March 10, 2009
PER Diem: March 11, 2009

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By John Hollinger
ESPN.com


We love to celebrate little guys in this game, and in particular, pure
point guards who make the guys around them look so good.

So it's weird to me to see that we probably have the best player ever
of his kind playing right now … and yet he's weirdly gone unheralded.
We couldn't wait to throw MVPs at Nash and Iverson and darn near gave
one to Jason Kidd, too. But Chris Paul? Somehow, it doesn't seem
everyone is totally on board with him.

To an extent, it's understandable. He hasn't played in June yet, he's
in a small market and his game, in many ways, isn't as spectacular as
the highlight Holy Trinity of LeBron, Kobe and Wade.

So once again, I feel a certain responsibility to remind everyone of
just how good Chris Paul has been these past two years, and how
unprecedented it is for a point guard to dominate the game on this
level.

It's worth noting, for instance, that Paul is about to set the mark
for the best PER ever by a player at this position since the ABA-NBA
merger … and that he's breaking the mark set by none other than Chris
Paul, in 2007-08.

Yes, it's easier for a small guard to dominate today's game than it
was for John Stockton and Isiah Thomas to dominate in the '80s, and
it's true that we don't know if Paul will have the longevity that the
players above enjoyed.

Nonetheless, compare Paul's first four seasons to any point guard from
the post-merger era, and one conclusion becomes evident really fast --
the only player who can even plausibly compare to him is Magic.

This year, CP has been better than ever. Despite earning hardly a
whisper in this year's MVP discussions after coming in second a year
ago, Paul is actually having a better season on several fronts.

"I'm a little surprised by it as well," said Hornets coach Byron
Scott. "I would think Chris would be in the conversation somewhere
because of the way he's played all season long, with the injuries
we've had, and to be where we are right now is pretty remarkable."

Top PG PERs since ABA-NBA merger
Without an all-star supporting cast, Chris Paul is on pace to break
his own record for the highest PER among point guards.

Player Season PER
Chris Paul 2008-09 29.1
Chris Paul 2007-08 28.4
Magic Johnson 1986-87 27.0
Magic Johnson 1988-89 26.9
Magic Johnson 1989-90 26.6


Where they are is only a couple of games back of where they were a
year ago, even with center Tyson Chandler missing 22 games and
struggling when he's taken the court, wings Peja Stojakovic and Morris
Peterson dealing with injury problems of their own and a bench
comprised of a role call of other teams' castaways.

Monday's loss in Atlanta was a good example. Paul hardly had his best
game -- he finished with 24 points and 10 assists, but shot 8-of-19
and committed six turnovers -- yet what stood out more was the glaring
absence of any help. New Orleans got seven points from its bench and
two from Chandler in an 89-79 loss.

But they're still on pace to win 51 games, and the reason they're
hanging in the race has been Paul. He's looking to lead the league in
steals and assists for a second straight season, and ranks a close
third behind James (31.29) and Wade (30.51) in the PER race after
finishing second behind James a season ago.

Which takes us back to the historical comparisons. Paul already is on
a trajectory that would stamp him the best player under 6-foot-4 in
league history -- if he comes anywhere close to matching his career
numbers for a few more seasons, Stockton's longevity would be the only
counterargument left -- which I alluded to more than a year ago.

But with this year's performance, we're left to consider even loftier
heights -- like whether he can rival Magic in the pantheon of great
point guards.

And despite their obvious differences -- Magic was 6-9 yet the most
dangerous open-court player in league history, while Paul is barely
six feet yet may be the best half-court pick-and-roll player in eons
-- Scott says he sees more than few similarities between his current
point guard and his former Showtime backcourt mate.

"The obvious difference is the height," said Scott, "but they are so
much alike in so many ways.

"Number one, both of them were extremely competitive, neither one
could stand to lose. Both of them were the most giving guys I've ever
seen on the basketball court; that was their whole thing was being a
true point guard. They look for their teammates first, [especially]
the first two quarters.

"Chris has taken a page out of Magic's book, as far as most of the
time in the second half I tell him, 'You have to be more aggressive.'
Earvin was great at that, getting everybody involved in the first half
and then being a little more aggressive in the second half and trying
to take over, and Chris is starting to do that."

Of course, there's one huge difference between Magic and Paul, and
it's something that may be tough to rectify as long as he's in New
Orleans -- Magic won five championships, while Paul's team hasn't gone
beyond the second round of the playoffs.

There are good reasons for this -- Magic not only had Scott as a
teammate, but also Hall of Famers Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy
and Bob McAdoo. Although Paul has two teammates who have made the All-
Star team (David West and Peja Stojakovic), his cohorts pale by
comparison.

As a result, Paul may stay a cult hero for a while longer. Yes, he
gets a few scraps of national TV exposure and the occasional
endorsement, but he remains mostly a "League Pass" legend known best
to TiVo junkies and his small band of admirers on the Bayou.

Thus, I must implore you again -- watch this guy, and appreciate him
while he's in his prime. Those in the know are seeing the best point
guard since Magic Johnson, and arguably the best little man of all
time … and the lack of attention to his exploits continues to bewilder
me.

John Hollinger writes for ESPN Insider. To e-mail him, click here.
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